Jan 30, 2025
On ourpodcast, we have often talked about the Supplemental NutritionAssistance Program, or SNAP. In many of those conversations, we'vetalked about the benefits and eligibility, and ways to improve thework that SNAP does to help low-income families meet their foodneeds. In today's podcast, we're going to turn our attention to aparticular challenge, and it's the SNAP skimming fraud. To help usunderstand this and the larger context of SNAP, we have the greatpleasure of talking with Salaam Bhatti, who is the director of SNAPat the Food Research and Action Center, or FRAC.
InterviewSummary
So, let'sprovide a little bit of level setting for our listeners. Can youtell us what role SNAP plays in the lives of individuals who arefacing low income or food insecurity?
Yeah,Norbert, the problem with being in the richest, most powerfulnation in world history is that we are facing a food and hungercrisis. We have the means, we have the resources to solve for it,but we haven't. For the record, the USDA, the United StatesDepartment of Agriculture, did a study last year. They do thisstudy every year where they report food security in the country. In2023, 86.5 percent of U. S. households were food secure. Theremaining 13.5 percent, which is 18 million households, were foodinsecure. And this was an increase from 2022. So, 86.5 percent offood security is barely a B+. To be in the most powerful wealthiestnation in the world and we're barely getting a B+ in this space isunacceptable. And so, we saw some really interesting policieshappen during the pandemic. We saw emergency allotments come in forthe SNAP program, where all households received the maximum benefitamount for their households. And that, unfortunately, sunset. Whenthat emergency allotment was in place, food insecurity-surprise,surprise-decreased. But not just that, we also saw Medicaidhealthcare spending costs decrease as well. Because who would havethought that when people had food security, they didn't need to goto the emergency room because their blood sugar was low. So, we'reexperiencing a lot of challenges where we've seen the governmentshow its hand that it can end poverty. It can end hunger. It justchooses not to.
We know thatSNAP is an entitlement program. It's available to anyone who meetsthe eligibility requirements. But we know that everyone who'seligible doesn't participate in the SNAP program. Can you help usthink about how more people can be enrolled who are eligible. Andmaybe we even need to think more broadly about what is eligibility?What are your thoughts about this?
In a givenmonth these days, about 42 million people participate in SNAP.That's a lot of people. I would say that 42 million people areparticipating in it every day, but unfortunately, SNAP benefits donot last the whole month. By the third week of the month, people'sSNAP benefits have been exhausted.
Now, taking astep back, in case the listeners don't know how SNAP benefits work,it's a, as you said, a government program. And it comes in the formof an electronic benefits transfer card, an EBT card. It looks likea credit card, looks like a debit card. But really, it's more likea hotel card key, because it doesn't have the security measures,which we can talk about later in the show. It doesn't have thesecurity measures that a credit and a debit card have. It isessentially a glorified hotel key. It's got the magnetic stripe onthe back, circa 20 years ago. Maybe 15. I'm dating myself. I don'tknow how long ago it was we were swiping the cards. But all yougotta do is you swipe the card and you type in your PIN. And thenyou can use it at the EBT retailer. That is in a nutshell how 40million people are utilizing SNAP benefits every singlemonth.
The programitself is also vital to retailers as well. We've seen that everydollar of SNAP benefits generates about $1.54 in economic activityduring an economic downturn. So that means that when somebody isusing their SNAP benefits at the grocery store, it's helping thatgrocery store keep the lights on. You know, employ the cashiers.And we need to employ cashiers, enough of this self-checkout stuff.It helps to pay the truck driver who's transporting the produce tothe store. And it ultimately even helps pay the farmer for growingthe crop. So, it's a great investment from the federal governmentinto not just our households to help them put food on the table,but really into the whole local economy. And it is immediately useddirectly by the people and helps so many people.
Now so, toyour question about how do we enroll more people? Well, luckily weare at a time where the USDA reports that in the fiscal year 2022,88 percent of eligible individuals were participating in SNAP. Andthat is the highest participation rate we've seen since theystarted tracking this in the past 50 years. That's great. Butagain, it's just a B+ so we can do better. There is room toimprove. In the study, it showed that older adults, those who areover 60, they're participating at lower rates with only 55 percentof eligible members in that age category participating. We alsohave so many military families and veterans who are eligible, butdon't participate.
This SNAP gapis something that our partners are working throughout the states,throughout the entire country. We're working in partnership with alot of federal agencies and partners as well. So, how do youultimately close the SNAP gap? We're seeing a lot of targetedoutreach. Seeing a lot of education efforts, but, you know, with 88percent of eligible people participating, what's going on-on thelocal level? And unfortunately, Norbert, we've seen that stateagencies which administer the SNAP program are unfortunatelyunderstaffed and they're underfunded. I used to be a state advocateat the Virginia Poverty Law Center. And when I was, hustling in thehalls and lobbying for a million households with low income, Ibecame friends with our social services agency because we hadsimilar goals. We wanted to help households with low income. And wecame to learn that the agency that we are relying on to administerthe program was never getting their budget met by the legislativeassembly. So, what we did was we got into partnership with them toadvocate for their budget so that they could retain their staff,and so that the staff could do the job. That is something that wehave to do across the states. Support these social service agenciesin getting the funding so that they can have the staffing so thatthey can administer the programs in a timely way.
Unfortunately,I don't know if you've seen this but earlier this year, the USDASecretary Vilsack sent out a letter to like 44 state agencies,including D. C. and Guam. Being very concerned about theirtimeliness issues because they're supposed to complete theapplication reviews and determine eligibility within 30 days. Andthat's for a normal SNAP application. You have seven days forexpedited applications. And 44 of these agencies were not meetingthe mark. That's bad for, in terms of deadlines, but even worse forthe families experiencing the food insecurity. So that is a verylayered answer. It's the seven-layer dip answer of how we increaseparticipation. Well, we need more staff to, to help thatout.
I hear that,and I'm really grateful for how you hit it at this point, and Iwant to draw a little more attention to it. While you talk about 88percent participation, it looks different on a state-by-statelevel. Some states have a higher level of participation, otherstates don't. Do you think it's really the ability of those stateagencies to provide that support, or do you think there are otherfactors that may be influencing the differential participationrates across states?
Yeah, so wesaw a big retirement, the great resignation, that happened duringthe pandemic. There were so many state agency employees, you know,who were, who were doing the job because they were passionate aboutit. They were also at retirement age. So, we saw quite aresignation happen. Because it was incredibly difficult. It wastraumatizing to be involved in this space. And so, they resigned,or they retired, or they moved on to somewhere else. The newworkers came in and they learned the programs with theflexibilities that were provided during the pandemic. Now, theyhave to relearn the program because all those flexibilities aregone. So, we're seeing a lot of administrative burden taking placewithin these agencies.
I have acolleague, Carolyn Barnes, who's worked on this idea ofadministrative burden and the challenge of what's sometimesreferred to as street level bureaucrats. The people who are on theground who do the administration of these programs and thechallenges that they face and the ways they engagefolks. Iappreciate hearing more about this. And I'm going to ask apotentially controversial question then. What if we took thatresponsibility out of the hands of state agencies and privatizedthat? What would that look like?
Oh, andpeople have tried that. Governments have tried that, and it'salways resulted in net losses. Not only has it cost the statesmore, but it has also led to the participants not receiving theirbenefits, or receiving less than, or receiving an error of morethan. So many errors have resulted, which has made the program andadministration worse. Which is an interesting question because alot of people don't know that there are skilled employees at thehelm within the agencies that are working on these eligibilitydeterminations. They're known as merit-based staff. And every nowand then you'll see a Farm Bill, that's the piece of legislationthat houses the SNAP program, it'll come in and they'll try toprivatize parts of the program. In the guise of, 'Oh, we're justwanting to help the agencies out and get the benefits to thepeople.' But listen, the several states that have privatized theirbenefit programs have learned the hard way and they've done awaywith those privatization efforts.
Okay. I wantto turn our attention to something that you hinted at, and wetalked about at the top of the program. This idea of skimming orthe SNAP skimming fraud. And this is not something thatparticipants are doing. It's something that's happening negativelyto participants. So, could you tell us a little bit more about thisskimming issue?
You know,skimming is a very serious problem that has affected all types ofconsumers. It's a device that gets put on the point-of-sale system,like that thing that you insert your card into or swipe at thecheckout. And it's indistinguishable from the actual point of salesystem. You could have a trained eye and still not be able to tellthat this point-of-sale system has been compromised.
So, whathappens is when somebody uses a compromise point of sale system,their information, their card number, their pin is all taken. Andwithin the same day, within an hour, you'll see the benefits areextracted. Usually in an entirely different state, and just theaccount balance is completely wiped out. The SNAP participant doesnot find out. If they don't check their account balance, they won'tfind out until the next time they're at the grocery store andthey've done their, you know, 30 minutes of 45 minutes of shopping,with their kids in tow, and they've put everything on the conveyorbelt and they're checking out and they swipe their card. And itsays your payment is declined. And that is an awful harrowingsituation that people are subjected to in the richest nation on theplanet. They can't even use their government benefits to put foodon the table. And then the process that currently exists to replacethose stolen benefits is a lot of administrative burdens there aswell. Where you have to you go home without the food, you fill outa piece of paper to say what happened, and then it takes weeks foryou to get your benefits replaced. And God forbid that this happensto you more than twice in one year because the current resolutionfrom Congress only allows two benefit replacements everyyear.
But I mean,Norbert the question might be, who's stealing all this stuff? Andwhy aren't the states doing something about it? Or why isn't theSNAP participant doing more to protect themselves? What we have tounderstand is that there are federal authorities, the FBI, arelooking into this. They are investigating this because tens ofmillions of government dollars have been stolen. Over 120,000households have been affected. This is big. This is bigger than theSNAP participant. This is bigger than the state. This is biggerthan the retailers. And so, there's a lot for the federalgovernment to do not just in replacing the benefits. Because that'syou know, you we have a hole in the boat and we can't throw moneyat the hole. We need to fix the hole. So, what are we looking athere? We're looking at the opportunity to Secure our cards, securethe EBT card, by moving to chip. So, that is the next bigthing
You know whatI appreciate out of this conversation is the experience ofindividuals who are using their SNAP benefits and they go to thestore and the pain of discovering that their SNAP benefits havebeen expended. Not by them, but through some other means. I knowthe experience of having identity theft and, losing a credit cardand not being able to do it. But I'm not in a situation where thatmeans I'm not able to put food on my table. So, thank you forbringing our attention to the individual tragedy of thatexperience. And I think that's something important. But what you'realso hinting at is that this is not some small-time incident. Thisis something much bigger. And of course, the federal government hasa deep interest in trying to address this issue. And there needs tobe some fix. And how this fix occurs also needs to be cognizant ofthe individual experience of low income individuals who are juststruggling to make sure that they're able to solve this foodproblem.
Yeah, youwere talking about identity theft and when identity theft happensin the private sector things are resolved pretty quickly. If yourcredit card is hacked, nowadays you can just go online and saydispute charge and everything's taken care of within 24 hours. Butcan you imagine like not getting food benefits, like your debitcard, your bank account being emptied, and you don't get everythingback for weeks. It's mind numbing. It's really awful to thinkabout.
You'vementioned some technology fixes. And seems like they're pretty wellknown, the chip technology. Are there other fixes or in terms oftechnology or security systems that could help prevent thisskimming challenge?
One of theother challenges we're facing with the skimming is that thereplacement benefits are temporary, it's going to expire onDecember 20th of this year (2024). And this is an extension thathappened after the original replacement benefits, which was justunder two years. These short-term fixes, or these short-termreplacement benefit strategies are not what we need. We really needa permanent replacement benefit because no matter how secure thecard gets, criminals are just going to be creative, and they willattack every single type of card as they continue to do with chipcards. Because we're talking about skimming, there's also somethingcalled shimming. S H I M M I N G. And that's when the point-of-salesystem isn't compromised from the top, but from within, where youinsert the card. That's shimming. So, that's something that existsas well. Chip cards will go a long way to decreasing the benefittheft when chip cards rolled out in the private sector it reducedtheft by like around 90 percent. We're hopeful and optimistic thatsimilar patterns will emerge there. But that's of course not 100percent. It's not AA+++ It's a reason for why permanent replacementbenefits need to continue. When it comes to chip card benefits,your listeners might be like, wait, wait, wait, this is 2024. Westill have cards that haven't gone chip? It's because there's somany layers in the financial sector of what's going on the back endof these cards. So thankfully there was this massive process knownas the x9 process where the entire industry came together. All thecard manufacturers, grocers, convenience stores, retailers, banks,us humble nonprofits, and we came in to talk about what needs to bedone. And so, they finally released the standards just over a monthago. And now we have two states in the running California andOklahoma to roll out chip cards in the new year. All eyes are onCali and Oklahoma to see how it goes before, I guess other statesare going to hop on. The chip card is going to be the next bigthing in the SNAP benefits world.
Thank you forsharing this. I want to ask you one additional question about thistechnology issue. And it's related to a project I'm working on.It's the idea of online grocery shopping and the expansion of theSNAP benefits for online grocery shopping. And I'm wondering ifthere's any relationship between what you're seeing in skimming andthe ability to use online grocery shopping. Or are these completelydisconnected?
I haven'tseen anything regarding theft online, it's all been physical. Weare seeing some promising things coming out of online shopping,especially for people who are living in areas without food access.Once we can bridge that gap of getting fresh food, like the produceand meats and chicken and fish, to people who are far away fromgrocery stores, then we've found the magic solution. But it's apromising trend on the online delivery space.
Oh, that'sawesome. I want to ask you just more generally about SNAP and whereFRAC is right now. Where are you all thinking about in this space?And then what are ways that you can get just regular everydaypeople to help in the policy work of eliminating foodinsecurity?
For more than50 years, FRAC has been working to improve health, nutrition, andthe well-being of people who have been struggling with povertyrelated hunger in the United States. Now, we have made tremendousstrides in the fight against hunger. We've played a critical rolein expanding SNAP. We've secured increased benefits for householdswith low incomes through landmark legislation, litigation. Butunfortunately our work is far from over and we are really trying towork ourselves out of jobs. We cannot do it alone. We really needall hands on deck, especially as we are seeing in this upcomingFarm Bill effort some cuts that are being suggested or offered toSNAP benefit. We really need all hands on deck to protect thisprogram. To build a nation free from hunger we encourage yourlisteners to go to frac.org, frac.org. Sign up for our actionnetwork and urge your members of Congress to prioritize endinghunger in America. Now, I know that oftentimes we're not sure whatwe should be saying to our Congress members. Our action networktells you all the things and it helps you really quickly and easilycustomize templates. Send in your own messages to your members ofCongress. And also learn about hunger in your state and thesolutions that exist as well. So, what will it achieve for you atthe end of the day? Your efforts will advance bold and equitablepolicy and program solutions. And provide technical assistance andtraining to thousands of anti hunger advocates across the country,because we're collecting your stories. And your stories help impactCongressmembers. It helps us win their hearts.
Bio
Salaam Bhatti joined FRAC in November 2023 as the SNAP Director. Inthis role, he works to strengthen SNAP access and benefit adequacy.Salaam works closely with the Interim President to develop, lead,and track annual work plans; set and meet unit goals; collaboratewith other unit Directors to assist in achieving FRAC’s strategicplan goals; and expand the unit’s innovation and work.Salaamjoined FRAC after working at the Virginia Poverty Law Center(VPLC). While at VPLC, he successfully lobbied to fully repeal thedrug felon ban for SNAP and TANF, twice achieved record increasesto TANF cash benefits, subsidized reduced-priced school meals,repealed the TANF family cap, ended lunch shaming policies inschools, and received a unanimous vote to expand SNAP for over20,000 families. Salaam also helped develop amobile-friendly, SNAP screening tool which is used by tens ofthousands of people & multiple non-profits and has been rolled outto be available for all states and D.C. He received the YoungAlumni Achievement Award from Albright College for his work inalleviating poverty and promoting Muslim-Jewish relations. Salaamalso received the inaugural Stuart A. Freudberg Award for RegionalPartnership for his work with Maryland and DC Hunger Solutions toaddress food insecurity across the metropolitan Washington areafrom the Metropolitan Washington Council ofGovernments.Salaam has a J.D. from Touro Law School, isbarred in New York and Virginia, and received his Bachelors inPolitical Science and International Relations from Albright College(with a year abroad in the University ofAberdeen).
